I hope you can understand that it's difficult for me to engage with you when you seem to have taken it as a basic premise that I am not a woman, but a third gender called "trans." I am a woman. I'd like to be referred to that way.
AlsoSprachOdin said in comment #2642243: Okay, the idea that such policies implemented broadly will obstruct you, not just being barred from a woman's shelter or public bathrooms specifically, sure. But not so far as to generally remove you from public life, you'd at the very least still be able to engage in the same unisex public life men can, like walking around in public, talking to people as we are right now, running for office or whatever. Certainly no risk to your health.
I think you may underestimate the degree to which the ability to use a public bathroom is necessary to participate in public life. If you work in an office? Consider the prospect of holding it until you get home, or praying that they've got unisex bathrooms (not all offices do!). So that's, what, a pretty significant number of white-collar jobs ruled out for you? And plenty of blue-collar jobs, too. Also, going out to restaurants, any kind of extended time in a public place – if you don't have your own computer and need to write up a resume in order to apply, you'll need to go somewhere with public computers, i.e. somewhere where you might not be permitted to use the bathrooms. Either hold it until you get home, or soil yourself (which is likely to get you removed from public spaces anyway!), or use a public bathroom.
AlsoSprachOdin said in comment #2642243: Whereas if a trans goes into a men's restroom they will usually be around guys who will actively intervene in assaults, don't want to assault trans women because they aren't so aggressive, or simply don't swing that way. You yourself expressed more concern with being expelled than sexual harassment or rape. So the risk seems more substantial to women. I'm not saying I care, I'm making a point about the general perception.
Also: I think your understanding of men's behavior is maybe a little rosy? I've had men scream slurs and throw things at me for existing in public, often in a public library, surrounded by other people/cameras/security guards. A men's bathroom is physically isolated and does not contain security cameras. Do you think their behavior is going to improve in an environment where there are fewer checks on their behavior? I've also had men come to me (in my capacity as a librarian) to tell me that there is a woman in the men's bathroom and I need to have her removed Immediately. Even if I'm not assaulted, I'd prefer not to be harassed/physically attacked, or to have someone escalate to calling police/security because "there's someone in the wrong bathroom."
I haven't been assaulted in a men's bathroom because I don't use men's bathrooms. If I were legally barred from women's bathrooms, my risks would escalate substantially.
AlsoSprachOdin said in comment #2642243: I've heard such claims before and was given pretty convincing reason to doubt it. Can you provide a good source?
verifiably said: I am a woman. I'd like to be referred to that way.
I don't think I should. Besides, I'd like you to not promote transsexualism by example or rhetoric, but we can rarely have the things we want. So I'm trying to make a compromise by not referring to you as a guy. Even if you consider yourself a woman, I expect you'll agree that you're ALSO trans.
praying that they've got unisex bathrooms
Something to check before applying obviously, and smaller workplaces in smaller buildings are a lot more likely to have those. But I'm pretty sure the vast majority of employers will let you use one bathroom or other, and that the other employers won't assault you in a place where they work. As for restaurants, how big of a problem is that? I go to one like once a year.
I've had men scream slurs and throw things at me for existing in public
I doubt that's the whole truth of the matter, that all that lead up to such confrontations was you "existing". As you probably surmise, I'm rather what you'd call transphobic, but I still manage to be polite to the trans people I'm around (I mean I try to just not talk about trans stuff, I imagine you don't think I'm being very polite right now), even when they talk shit about istaphobes like myself to my face. Nor have I ever seen the slightest hint of trans discrimination. So it seems improbable that it's all so black and white.
A men's bathroom is physically isolated and does not contain security cameras
But your first mentioned concern regarding restrooms was being told to leave, not violence. It makes me suspect that you're not actually so concerned about that aspect. A man seems to have as much reason to be afraid of about being alone in a restroom with a trans person as the other way around.
Couldn't you provide actual law enforcement statistics? I can't get access to the actual report being cited in the first link because the full text is behind paywalls, and too many joke papers have been peer-reviewed for me to trust academic papers without being able to read them properly. The second one only seems to cover "hate crimes" so it doesn't provide a comparison to "non-hate crimes". And the third is from the "National Center for Transgender Equality", and its sources seems to be surveys. Say-so just isn't enough. Ideally we'd be comparing convictions. I can find an academic paper, too, six years newer and one that you can read in full for free: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=6182901, with data of numbers of victims taken "from the website ‘Remembering Our Dead’ (https://tdor.translivesmatter.info)" and it just concludes that we don't have enough data even in the UK to make any conclusions about this.
Something to check before applying obviously, and smaller workplaces in smaller buildings are a lot more likely to have those. But I'm pretty sure the vast majority of employers will let you use one bathroom or other, and that the other employers won't assault you in a place where they work. As for restaurants, how big of a problem is that? I go to one like once a year.
Put it this way: I'm going to cut off an unknown, non-negligible fraction of the jobs you can work and the public spaces you can stay an extended period in. It's possible that you'll need a job very badly, and be unable to work the positions you're qualified for/earn the amount you need to sustain yourself, due to the policies of the institutions where you're looking. Your job hunt is going to take more time and involve greater overall risk. I expect you to be fine with that.
I am fortunate enough to have enough savings that I'd be able to look for a new job for some time if my employer's policies shifted, but plenty of trans people aren't, and would subsequently suffer for it.
I doubt that's the whole truth of the matter, that all that lead up to such confrontations was you "existing". As you probably surmise, I'm rather what you'd call transphobic, but I still manage to be polite to the trans people I'm around (I mean I try to just not talk about trans stuff, I imagine you don't think I'm being very polite right now), even when they talk shit about istaphobes like myself to my face. Nor have I ever seen the slightest hint of trans discrimination. So it seems improbable that it's all so black and white.
Okay, would you like to make a suggestion about what I did to merit having objects thrown at my face in public?
But your first mentioned concern regarding restrooms was being told to leave, not violence. It makes me suspect that you're not actually so concerned about that aspect. A man seems to have as much reason to be afraid of about being alone in a restroom with a trans person as the other way around.
It seems confusing to me that you don't feel I can have more than one concern at the same time.
verifiably said in comment #2642322: an unknown, non-negligible fraction
If you're assuming the employers won't let you use either bathroom, then without numbers it is also an assumption that this is a non-negligible fraction.
verifiably said in comment #2642322: Okay, would you like to make a suggestion about what I did to merit having objects thrown at my face in public?
I said nothing about merit, and obviously I'd have to speculate since I wasn't there, so I'd not like to. But if you were to insist, then if such projectile confrontations are a frequent occurrence for you, maybe you were discussing transsexualism or other politics beforehand. If it was a single occurrence, then it could be anything from transitioning to making pancakes, but it wouldn't very be indicative of a wider pattern.
verifiably said in comment #2642322: It seems confusing to me that you don't feel I can have more than one concern at the same time.
Sure you can, but they're likely to be prioritized, and the one mentioned first seems likely to be the one most on your mind. And if it's a issue with a lower potential negative outcome (PNO) then another concern with a higher PNO is likely considered even less probably than it would already have to be for getting prioritized on par with the first concern. Pardon that run-on-sentence, I'm getting a bit tired. [edit] More succinctly, that you mentioned being told to leave before violence indicates violence is even less of a concern than being told to leave.
I said nothing about merit, and obviously I'd have to speculate since I wasn't there, so I'd not like to. But if you were to insist, then if such projectile confrontations are a frequent occurrence for you, maybe you were discussing transsexualism or other politics beforehand. If it was a single occurrence, then it could be anything from transitioning to making pancakes, but it wouldn't very be indicative of a wider pattern.
I mean, you said yourself that you didn't think it was "black and white," and that you've never seen trans discrimination. What do you mean, when you say that it wasn't "black and white"? Do you think that talking about being transgender is sufficient to make having things thrown at me a morally complex choice, rather than a simple act of violence? Do you feel that having something thrown at me for talking about being transgender would not be an act of discrimination? If not, what do you mean by things not being "black and white"?
What do you mean, when you say that it wasn't "black and white"?
I've not said that. I said "it seems improbable that it's all so black and white", and I was referring to what sounded like a broader pattern of aggressive conflicts, not a single incident.
verifiably said in comment #2642333: Do you think that talking about being transgender is sufficient to make having things thrown at me a morally complex choice
No, I was thinking that such conversations can easily spiral into heated tempers. Just consider this "so what you're saying is" rhetoric we have right here as an example.
verifiably said in comment #2642333: If not, what do you mean by things not being "black and white"?
You could for example not be as innocent as you portray yourself as. Insults, threats, harassment are possibilities. Also violence. But "it seems improbable", not impossible that you were incontrovertibly innocent in the matter and the other party incontrovertibly solely guilty. I'd simply not accept your word alone on the matter, and I don't think you should care so much about a stranger on the internet not automatically believing your anecdote about getting an unspecified object thrown at you unprovoked this one time. I don't think it's that important, not nearly as much the broader patterns of violent crime involving trans people you stopped addressing. Do you still think trans people are particularly frequently victims of violent crime, and if so, why? [Edit] Besides undocumented personal experience.
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